So I heard about California's "Proposition 8" on TV again.

[Phoenix Brave]

Before you start reading, I'd like to let you all know I'm straight. Plus, I think this is a good topic to discuss.


Man, I can not tell you how many times I've heard mention of that anti-gay law in California. It sucks that we have to have people conform to the whole "Marriage is only supposed to be between a man and a woman" crud.

I, for one, say that they should allow people who are gay the right to marrage. It isn't fair, the way I see it, that we have to make them choose who to love.

I swear. Sometimes, I find it shocking how people want others to conform to what they believe is "right".

btw, if any Forum Moderator thinks that this isn't an appropriate topic, then do what you wish with it. I just thought this'd be a good topic.

[FatMike]

I'm Bi, and I think "Gay Marriage" is silly. This is because I try to look at things objectivly instead of just saying, oh I'm Bisexual, that means I have to be for Gay Marriage. I think it is just trying to emulate what straight people have, instead of just creating there own thing. I think Gay's should have equal rights, but not be considered the same function in society. I don't think a child needs two of the same gender parents. Traditional values, in opinion, are a good thing, and make a country stong. And America needs to be strong in the coming years, more than ever. I don't really care if I'm called an "Uncle Mary". Not all Gays and Bisexauls parade around and protest on the street corner in gaudy costumes
This statement above is pretty much what I agree with too.

[IHeartArt]

I'm Bi, and I think "Gay Marriage" is silly. This is because I try to look at things objectivly instead of just saying, oh I'm Bisexual, that means I have to be for Gay Marriage. I think it is just trying to emulate what straight people have, instead of just creating there own thing. I think Gay's should have equal rights, but not be considered the same function in society. I don't think a child needs two of the same gender parents. Traditional values, in opinion, are a good thing, and make a country stong. And America needs to be strong in the coming years, more than ever. I don't really care if I'm called an "Uncle Mary". Not all Gays and Bisexauls parade around and protest on the street corner in gaudy costumes (although I must admit, it can be fun sometimes too be extravagantly gay!)

Seperate but equal is unequal, yo.

[Strider]

I'm Bi, and I think "Gay Marriage" is silly. This is because I try to look at things objectivly instead of just saying, oh I'm Bisexual, that means I have to be for Gay Marriage. I think it is just trying to emulate what straight people have, instead of just creating there own thing. I think Gay's should have equal rights, but not be considered the same function in society. I don't think a child needs two of the same gender parents. Traditional values, in opinion, are a good thing, and make a country stong. And America needs to be strong in the coming years, more than ever. I don't really care if I'm called an "Uncle Mary". Not all Gays and Bisexauls parade around and protest on the street corner in gaudy costumes (although I must admit, it can be fun sometimes too be extravagantly gay!)
You obviously have no clue what you are talking about with your latter statements.

[Elfstone]

Seperate but equal is unequal, yo.

Exactly.

Besides, you should not keep tradition for the sake of having tradition. You know what else was once considered tradition? Women not being allowed to work or vote.

And what was meant by "I don't think a child needs two of the same gender parents?"

I'd say having two dads or moms is better than no parents at all. And homosexual parents can, in many ways, be as good as if not better than your traditional heterosexual marriage...

Honestly, I don't get how anyone can make a true argument against same sex marriage without using religion... And if you're going to go by the bible, well then, you might look in on the parts of the bible that basically advocate slavery....

[xxxxx]

What we should have, is the state offering civil partnerships to anyone who wants them (whatever the genders of the couple), then people can go to a church and get a priest to call it a marriage if they want.

It's personal choice really, if you don't want a gay marriage don't get one.

And as for the whole thing about a child needing a mother and a father, whether or not that is the best option (I don't know), two mothers, or two fathers is probably a far better option than being left in an orphanage.
You don't hear the same level of complaints about single parent households, and those kids aren't necessarily getting both parental role models.

[renny2010]

It all depends on the individual.

[FatMike]

One thing that bugs me about the whole "pride" thing is how its almost a mob mentality.. if your not one of them (i.e your not that much of a flamer or so in your face to others about your sexual orientation), then you must be against them. For the record I think its detrimental to full acceptance and rights to be having pride parades.. sure it needed to be shown that these people did exist and were out there, 20+ years ago, but people know that now and it doesn't have to be shoved in their face.

And same above with the member I agreed with, I never made a big deal of it all, and I've never had any problems when it comes to my orientation and people knowing.

[Strider]

Exactly.

Besides, you should not keep tradition for the sake of having tradition. You know what else was once considered tradition? Women not being allowed to work or vote.

And what was meant by "I don't think a child needs two of the same gender parents?"

I'd say having two dads or moms is better than no parents at all. And homosexual parents can, in many ways, be as good as if not better than your traditional heterosexual marriage...

Honestly, I don't get how anyone can make a true argument against same sex marriage without using religion... And if you're going to go by the bible, well then, you might look in on the parts of the bible that basically advocate slavery....
The problem with marriage and religion is that marriage existed long before Christianity and Christianity, along with every other religion, simply adopted the tradition. To say that marriage is a religious institution is completely false. God did not create marriage. A quick look into the history books would show you that.

I'm not even going to touch the comment about not needing two parents of the same gender.

[Strider]

One thing that bugs me about the whole "pride" thing is how its almost a mob mentality.. if your not one of them (i.e your not that much of a flamer or so in your face to others about your sexual orientation), then you must be against them. For the record I think its detrimental to full acceptance and rights to be having pride parades.. sure it needed to be shown that these people did exist and were out there, 20+ years ago, but people know that now and it doesn't have to be shoved in their face.

And same above with the member I agreed with, I never made a big deal of it all, and I've never had any problems when it comes to my orientation and people knowing.
I don't have any effeminte mannerisms what-so-ever, but I also have several friends who do and are active with gay activism. I've never had anyone say I was "against them" and I don't believe they are shoving anything in anyone's face either. Just remember that any rights you have now to be who you are were granted by those "flamers" fighting for them.

[FatMike]

The problem with marriage and religion is that marriage existed long before Christianity and Christianity, along with every other religion, simply adopted the tradition. To say that marriage is a religious institution is completely false. God did not create marriage. A quick look into the history books would show you that.
Yeah I do agree with this.
The fact that government plays the main, official part in marriage these days means that their shouldn't be any gender discrimination, therefore it probably should be done.. just leave religion that is against the acts out of it. In regards to adoption and surrogacy rights, well it depends on each situation and obviously the home life, but their is no reason why a long term, loving same sex couple shouldn't have kids if they want them.

Strider I respect your points there and obviously many gay guys are just naturally effeminate, and thats totally ok. My main concern is the way that the stereotype... well it seems to be upheld by the gay community, and a lot of gay teens think that they have to conform to that stereotype or they're going to be excluded. The sort of way it works like that, I mean its natural to be thought of that way but it would cause a lot of stress, as well as people acting not like they really are just for the cause of fitting in. For the record some of my comments are based on experiences of my own and experiences of friends I have that aren't flamers, as well as the general way the pride community acts in my location, so my opinions are more based on that. Apologies for not really making that clear. :)

[dankcub420]

I don't need a piece of paper to love someone.

[BigBellyBoi]

But it's not just a sheet of paper.
There are TONS of beneficial marriage laws that you can't get out of a domestic partnership.
Also, if "flamers" never fought for our rights, where would gay people be?

[Strider]

I just don't know. You all make some very good points, and I am by no means a anti-gay marriage activist. I am just not a gay-marriage activist either.

As the president of two different Republican orginizations (one in high school, the other, recently in college although not anymore) I spent several years fighting certain political causes and it was mentally and physically exhausting. One problem was that my best friend was a liberal activist, and some of my least favorite people, were in the Republicans club. The point is, I get along with people based not on what political affiliation they are, but how informed and open minded they are.

The only causes I still advocate for, are freedom of speech and 2nd amendment rights (guns). I agree completely that religion is not a factor in the gay marriage matter though. There are some people who obviously find this very important, so who I am to stand in the way, because I personally disagree?

I advocate for all of my first 10 Amendments, but the 2nd is a good one that I'm fond of and do exercise ;)


Yeah I do agree with this.
The fact that government plays the main, official part in marriage these days means that their shouldn't be any gender discrimination, therefore it probably should be done.. just leave religion that is against the acts out of it. In regards to adoption and surrogacy rights, well it depends on each situation and obviously the home life, but their is no reason why a long term, loving same sex couple shouldn't have kids if they want them.

Strider I respect your points there and obviously many gay guys are just naturally effeminate, and thats totally ok. My main concern is the way that the stereotype... well it seems to be upheld by the gay community, and a lot of gay teens think that they have to conform to that stereotype or they're going to be excluded. The sort of way it works like that, I mean its natural to be thought of that way but it would cause a lot of stress, as well as people acting not like they really are just for the cause of fitting in. For the record some of my comments are based on experiences of my own and experiences of friends I have that aren't flamers, as well as the general way the pride community acts in my location, so my opinions are more based on that. Apologies for not really making that clear. :)

I understand, and while the stereotypes hurt all gays, we can't treat anyone badly because they have mannerisms that could be considered stereotypical. We get enough bigotry towards us from outside the community, no need to have any inside of it. All we can do is educate people that the stereotypes are not true and hopefully gay teens will understand this and not feel like they have to conform to a mold. A big issue is that our society makes people feel the need to conform to a mold, but that is another topic altogether :p

[shoyru90210]

Thank god I live in canada where I can get married to whomever I want. As far as "flamers go". They are the most visible group among the gay community so its no surprise that that is the stereotype. So where are all the "masculine gays"?.. well living in an environment where it is easier to be straight than gay...those who do not display effeminate characteristics often chose to stay in the closet or at least lay low, since its so easy for them to do so. I for one am a masculine open gay man. And I cant tell you how often people are shocked to find out not all gays fit the stereotypical mold.

[fatman85]

Marriage is between a man and a women. Civil unions are okay for gays. Homosexuals talk about hate while they are accusing Christians for standing for what they believe in.

[Strider]

Marriage is between a man and a women. Civil unions are okay for gays. Homosexuals talk about hate while they are accusing Christians for standing for what they believe in.

So who gave Christians (or any religion for that matter) rights to the concept of "marriage"? Do you honestly think that a religion barely 2000 years old created such a thing? Or maybe you just think that because they put it in the bible that you now own it :rolleyes:

Your right to stand up for what you believe in ends when it interferes with MY rights.

EDIT: And way to necro a thread. I'm sure if you would have read the whole thing you wouldn't have felt compelled to make comments that have already been gone over either.